playtest of Warbell & feedback

[McNite]

Hey guys,

regarding the dangers of boredom ser pointed out here Kach and me were thinking of what we could do to avoid that kind of one-sided build and came up with "hey lets make another map".

We ve been working on it for some weeks already. These days I start being happy about the general maplayout (which is difficult cuz McNite = sucky perfectionist, ask Kach about that lol). Yesterday I started scripting the objectives and they work fine, so i guess its time to announce the making of this new map.

It will be VERY RtCW STYLE, with full cast of caves, dungeons, creepy things lurking in the shadows, a Monastery, and the Allies on a mission to safe the world

The List of objectives as for now:

STAGE 1:
Primary Objective: Destroy the Guard House Gate (secures the Guard House).
Secondary Objective: Capture the Guard House Flag (forward spawn).
Secondary Objective: Destroy the Wall that hides documents.
Secondary Objective: Destroy the Cave Wall to gain easy access to the Guard House.

STAGE 2:
Primary Objective: Deliver the Documents.
Primary Objective: Construct a Mechanism.
Primary Objective: Sacrifice 3 humans.
Secondary Objective: Build the Command Post (forward spawn).
Secondary Objective: Destroy the Main Gate.
Secondary Objective: Destroy the Garden Gate for another way into the Monastery area.

It will be a fast and tight playing 2-stage map, Axis attacking.

I m not giving away too much for now, you ll be kept updated. Map looks pretty raw for now, but will go into first playtests soon i guess.

[rise]

admin said:

anyone else who d like to participate plz post in here.

me me me ;D

[kach]

admin said:

and the Allies on a mission to safe the world

Hmmm, if the Allies objective is to protect the world by some means of using a condom, I must have missed a meeting or two. Cause that is a new one on me.............

Kach

[zardor]

Ahh,
So that's what they mean by "cover me"
;D
Z

[McNite]

That s how much Kach pays attention to what i say about the map ;D

[McNite]

Hey guys,

things are far enough to go into the first playtest with the new map this weekend. Here are the facts:

First Maptest[/color]

day: Saturday 11th of Feb
time: 4pm Texas/Winnipeg-time / 5pm NY-time / 10pm UK-time / 11pm Stockholm/Hamburg-time
server: ]UBC[ |TheRiver| 9maps
IP: 194.105.135.3:27960
pw: ask McNite on saturday
playtesters: all clanmembers and others that are interested

The map will NOT be finished by then, and look odd in several places. This test is about the gameplay and objectives.
Anybody giving feedback like "there was this strange texture" will be impaled in one of the dungeons of that very map.

[McNite]

edit: what i forgot:

Thx to all members and testers of this first maptest. I think it was a great test, with very intense fighting, and it was a lot of fun to see how fast and furious the battle went on. Already got quite some ideas for the next todo's, i bet Kach has some as well... if you have suggestions, plz do post them in this thread.
Again: a big thx to all who tested this version!


Here s the feedback of M8D DrStock:

i think u need another way in for axis that is not open in the last stage
thx for the test, i think the map have a good future

He also said that maybe right after the first stage there s a bottleneck because axis can held down a while, and that the allied back spawn needs cover from spawncamping.

[kach]

Yes I want to thank everyone that could make it out to test Warbell as well. It was great to actually run around in the map an play it with other people there (McNite and I only ever look at it on our own separately).

As for todo's I can think of many of them but I will share three:

1. Slippery church roofs so the $tatik and his MG fall off and die.

2. Maybe make some doors sachelable (new word I think) and possibly rebuild able.

3. Perhaps an underground tunnel exit from the pond inside the caves to somewhere in the vicinity of the church.

Thanks again,

Kach

[zardor]

Hello all,

Here are a few short ;D comments on last saturday's WarBell Map test:

First, it’s a good action filled map. I like that. Spawn times are quick, and run times into battle are short too, so no long boring walks like in Oasis or Goldrush. There’s a slope on the terrain that naturally carries the attacking axis in the right direction, and that height advantage also helps somewhat counter the allied defensive positions up on and in the buildings.
Visually, the style of the map is good, those parts that are decorated, and I have no doubt that Kach and McNite will finish the rest to an exemplary standard.

I have a few suggestions for improvements that you might like to take on board.

1) The caves.
These are a good idea, as it gives the axis another route for attack. However, I would change the destructible wall/doorway.

1.1) It might be nicer if instead of that there was an outflow channel from the underground lake at C/D 2/3. The axis engineer could then plant dyno, which when it goes off, would cause a rockslide into the channel, which would act as a bridge across to the doorway.

1.2) In addition, the rockslide would also block the outflow from the lake, causing the water level to slowly rise, over about 15 mins or so. When it is full, then the axis would be able to swim over to the other side of the caves and get access to the other half of the map, assuming that they have been held back by the allies for that long.

1.3) Someone suggested that there should be an underwater tunnel from the lake, but I think that this is a more sophisticated solution.

2) The First allied spawn area.

2.1) I think that there should be a balcony or terrace at the ‘front’ of the building, there is already a sloping bit of roof at about the right level for that.
2.2) Its length and width should be restricted, so as not to make it too easy to defend, in particular we don’t want $tatic camping up there with his mounted machine gun. Make it narrow, or put a low wall in front of it.
2.3) The final trick with this terrace is that there should be some way for axis to get up on the cliff at ~B/C 2/3, (possibly via a tunnel from the caves, or a ladder, from the rockslide mentioned above). An axis player can then jump down on to the terrace and get in that way. Probably get shot to bits straight away, but hey. he’ll have fun doing it.

3) Allied exit from spawn.
3.1) An issue here is that a jump/fall from the flag area doesn’t cause a splat. A fall from that height should do that, and will punish any impatient allies! (yes, they will panic when the dyno is planted- hehe)
3.2) Also, there is an open door at the back of the spawn, an axis eng could run straight through and capture CP and/or fix the bell. Dunno if you want it that way. Perhaps the rear small door should be allied only, like in SupplyDepot. And it should be accessible to allies coming from the back in a futile attempt to recapture the flag.
3.3) Also, the back exit for the axis from this spawn has a jump across to the cliff tunnel. (at B/C 3/4) The jump seem just a little too long, and annoyed me a lot!

4) The Objective
I am very unsure about the location of the objective. It seems awkward where it is, in a room that gets blown to bits, right off the spawn. A relic of such importance deserves more respect!
I make the following suggestion:
4.1) Change it from the book of the dead to something like the bones of that guy we kill at the end of RTCW, or some other similar relic. Have them interred in a crypt @ location A/B 5/6. There’s already a small building along the river near there anyway. Two ways into the crypt:
4.2) A small allied door, so a cov-ops with stolen uniform can get in,
4.3) And a dynamiteable & rebuildable wall so an eng can do it.
4.4) That section of the map could be done as a graveyard to match the theme.
4.5) Plenty of opportunities for allies to mine the place beforehand,
4.6) But the axis should be able to spot most of them easily from the captured spawn point.
4.7) Ideally, there should be steps down into the crypt for atmosphere, but make sure that you’re above the river level for correctness.
4.8) If that’s not an acceptable idea, then perhaps you could convert the unused floor under the spawn area into a ‘library’, something like in Venice, but on a smaller scale. Dunno if the area available is big enough to do it justice, since there will probably have to be something to blow up to get to it.

5) The Command post.
Position seems about right.
5.1) Only play problem I had is that I was getting such fire from the main cathedral, ($tatic again!) I tried to get in over the wall at B/C 5/6. However, although it looks like one could make it, it is just a little bit too high. Perhaps this is intentional, but I would have liked it, especially since the allies seem to have an advantage when defending the approach to the cathedral.
The command post complex in nicely done, but it would be nice to make use of the second building.
5.2) Could we have access to a second story and/or the roof, so a sniper could get up there, and possibly pick off the allied defenders on the roof of the cathedral?
5.3) To make things a bit harder for the sniper, you could put an allied door on there, so he has to work a bit harder to get the uniform to get in. He would also have a good view to spot landmines.

6) The ‘garden area’
At first, I thought that the garden gate should be open able by covert-ops in stolen uniform. But my main concern with allowing covert ops to sneak into the cathedral by this, or other means, is that they can win the match this way. I am a firm believer in creating a situation where cov-ops can help win the map, (eg fueldump), since that encourages good teamplay, but not where they can ‘unfairly’ steal a win, like in caen.
So instead, I propose the following:
6.1) Make the front gate satchable, and re-constructable by allied engineer.
6.2) Make the crypt door the same (hey, engineers probably have enough to do as it is)
6.3) Leave the garden gate dynamite-able
6.4) The steps at the back – despite McNite’s claims, I was able to get in here. The swim does make a lot of noise, and I was caught a few times by alert allies, I admit! But I did get through a few times, and built the bell. It is a bit too easy. To fix this, I propose that
6.5) a constructible jetty is located there (or a rock or isolated bit of ground) An axis engineer can build this, and then can get into the cathedral. But, if he makes it, he won’t have enough charge left to build the bell straight away (!) Of course, the allies can blow up the jetty again afterwards.

6.6)I thought about putting in a new wall, along E/F 6, this will wall off the side garden with the benches, with an allied gate in it, but that is probably too complicated. What do other people think?

7)The ‘Second’ way.
(The second official approach to the cathedral, i.e through the tunnel in the cliffs.)
There’s a couple of unused buildings at the exit of this approach.
7.1)Might be nice to have access to those buildings, to give an axis sniper or panzerpuss a chance to take out the allied defenders on the roof.
7.2) In general, I detest unusable doors. They should always so somewhere, even if back onto another door! It makes the map feel more complete, and not “restricted” Plus it’s good to find access to a good sniping position, or gain access to somewhere you can jump from to get nearer the objective. Also, opening and closing doors can give the other players the jumps. I like that………

8)Health/ammo.

8.1) I am not a big fan of the liberal use of health/ammo resupply stands. I feel that it diminishes the role of field-ops, and encourages Rambo medics to load-up and run. The fact that there are no re-supply cabinets on the map doesn’t particularly bother me.
8.2) However, if there has to be some, then the CP is probably the best place.
8.3) If we just want to favour the attackers, then make it an axis constructible objective only. Other spots might be :
8.4) In the garden area, (if the axis make it that far!) or
8.5) In one of the buildings at the end of the tunnel.

9) The Cathedral:
The cathedral is very nicely done, but I feel that it has one problem:
9.1) Perhaps there are too many rooms and corridors in there. It’s as if all the space “had to be used” It’s very easy to get lost in there.
9.2) It might be better to close off some of the smaller dead end rooms, and
9.3) Simplify and widen the main routes.

The fact that there’s one stone spiral staircase and one wooden square one is good, since that helps orientate oneself, but it’s still quite confusing.

9.4) Also, the way in to the main chamber is a little awkward and tight or something, it’s as if the stone is too thick or something.

There’s a big two-story room in there, with nothing much in there except a cross (and an unfinished flame trench or something?)

9.5) One suggestion to give the allies a bit of a break is to make it a healing sanctuary – when a player ‘rests’ there, his health and stamina regenerate quickly. That might make up for the lack of health stands…

9.6) But the evil part of me does like the flame trench idea – can you weaponise it somehow and use it to fry axis?

Anyway, that’s all I’ll say for now. I hope you aren’t upset at the comments, they are just suggestions for the most part, not criticisms of what is looking like it will be a cracker of a map.
I also realise that there are limitations on the WET engine, in the number of entities and target objects, so what I proposed above may not all be technically possible
Well done so far Kach and McNite, I hope it’s not too long before we get another go at it.

Zardor

[McNite]

Just some short answers to zardors novel

3.2 is going to be a teamdoor Allies only, maybe will be opened when Axis take over the spawn.
3.3 is actually at a comfortable range for an low skill jumper like me (no offense meant zardor).

4.1 the location will be a hidden private study room with adequate interior and the book behind glas in a nice bookshelv. At least that s my plans so far. We need the docs close to spawn for Axis, so they can pick it up fast.
If things turn out too fast, I ll def give your ideas about a crypt another go.
4.8 that level is fighting area, so we can't really afford much stuff in it. Not sure on how to decorate it yet.

5.1 is easily possible, just try again
5.2 the roof of the other building is accessible, just not very obviously (makes a door at 5.3 not necessary, would add too much stuff for my taste too).

6.4/ 6.5 that area will be closed then. Garden Gate is the entrance furthest away from the Axis spawns.

7 The second way actually is the first way. Only i did the mistake of showing it in the wrong order in the walkthrough.
7.2 Doors are decoration for me, to make it a real place. Only exception are teamdoors. Of course they r usually shut, or do u leave your front door open at home?

8 should stay that way. The fast character of the map provides u with death usually before u run out of ammo.

9.5 I love that idea, only it will be a bit more hidden ;D

9 that s a first layout. It seems confusing ($tatiK got lost too he said). It has this scheme:
1st floor: access to all stairs and main room
2nd floor: access to bellrope to ring the bell, accessible via both stairs
roof/3rd floor: construct the bell mechanism, accssible via wooden stairs/roof and outside stairs/roof
The basic idea is: separate the constructible from the location where to ring the bell.

Those were the fast answers... my suggestion is: instead of giving coordinates which give everyone the need to start ET and run the map maybe edit the command map and put numbers in there. Kach and me can upload and link any pictures for the forum. You can download the command map as jpg here

[McNite]

Some more answers to zardors ideas. I hope i ll also give an insight in the style of the map and why that excludes certain ideas.

1.1 dyno takes 30 secs; the map is about speed though which requires a wall that is down after 2 grenades (i fixed that already); also the effects u describe while certainly being cool are momentarily beyond my abilities of how to get them visually done in a satisfying way, especially the rockslide

1.2, 1.3 the cave pond is decoration and a barrier that separates the 2 map stages. A connection between both is not planned on, it would be against its function.

However, the caves do need some changes in a way to allow a covered approach to the wall. Right now an MG can hold the Axis at bay easily.

2. We ll keep looking in the next playtests on whether Allies need more defensive structure. So far, I didn't have that impression. Then we ll reconsider a balcony or similiar. We have the space for that. And there s the place on the other side of the river too.
Its true though that this gate is harder to defend than the supplydepot2 gate because the spawn is further away and dyno can be defended better against Allies spawning upstairs. On the other hand: i heard that comp gamers are whining about exactly that as a flaw of supply2.

5.2 one thing i forgot above: giving easy access here means: easy defense position for Allies after they lost the guardhouse. That stage was already hard enough though imo.

6.1-6.3 About what is dynamitable, satchelable and rebuildable: Rebuilding means: you can be thrown back to that stage. If you want speed and progress like I do for warbell, its good that you can forget about an objective once its done. Its stopwatch style, while rebuildable stuff is campaign style.
Actually the only door i d consider rebuildable (and maybe satchelable) is the garden door, because it gives a very fast access for Axis to the top roof via the wooden stairs. Giving the defenders this would be a good thing for a busy engineer in the defense (there s nothing else for him to do apart from mining the garden).

6.6 is not complicated, but u need to explain its benefits more. Would it be a plus for fast and intense gameplay like we had?

9.6 What is a flame trench? Not even Kach knows that lol

Thx for your elaborate input, we ll def realise some of the ideas (especially the "regenerating by praying", we need a chanting hum for that or some gregorian singing...

Come to think of that, didn't we want a radio playing a river-song? Who can get that song and forward it to Kach?

If you have more "gadget" ideas like that kind of stuff, things u never saw in a map but would like to see, keep them coming, we ll realize as much as possible ;D

[zardor]

Some more commemts...


First to clariy point 6.6: Initially i thought that a second wall or fence accross with a team door and a dyno section would give the axis eng/covops more work to do, but then I figured that it wouls spoil the view, make the cathedral enviorns too big, and would cut up the nice big green area. So it's best left as is, particurally if the unnoficial way in at the steps at the back is going to be closed off. For for acion and flow, the space is best left open.

And the flame trench (9.6) - the room looks like it has a pipe running accross it, that is like a burner in the oven. Turn on the gas, and a wall of flame shoots up...

Whatever about the crypt to store the relic in, I still would like a graveyard in there somewhere. Perhaps it could be worked in on the slope down to the cahedral gates, so the gravestones and tombs could provide cover. But you will still need room for a road from the cahedral to the first spawn area, so I dunno if the area is wide enough as it is.

Looking at the first spawn area, with the 3 story building and the stream running under it, I think it might be nice to convert it into a mill
The difference in heights between the front and back is there, might have to raise it a little bit to get enough of a delta in the water levels. And then make the upper stram into a mill pond.
A waterwheel would look cool, and would be a challenge to get it working and looking right.
Anyone who swims near it gets caught in the current, and then *splat*
Since the building would then be a mill, having a few rope pulleys running down through holes in the floors or outside would not look out of place, and could be climbed up or down. Or a trapdoor on the second floor, to drop axis through ala Desert temple.

I know that there is probably some re-work comming on the cathedral itself, what with the sancturay and that. I hope you can make the bell bigger, give it a more impresive tower or something. It should be a visual focal point for the attackers. The construction can stay at the same level of course, just put the bell itself up higher. The sun should glint off it.........

And I also hope that we can find a better sound effect for it, it sounds like a doorbell at the moment.....not quite fitting for the bell of doom..... ;D


Speaking of special effects, I know its a bit early at this stage, but is it possible to change the skybox image and the atmosphere effects on the fly during the game? It would be impressive to start the game with clear sunny skys, but as the various objectives are completed, change the sky to darker and darker clouds and raise a storm to highlight the approaching evil. Is that do-able? Can the sky be animated, or it is a fixed image?

I'll probably think of a few more ideas. The Zars might take another run through it locally too and put some more thoughts together. But it wont be the same without a dozen players...it really is a good action map, and feels empty otherwise.

BFN,
Zardor

[McNite]

flame trench: was supposed to be a first level row of seats, only that building part is too small. Not sure on how to make it work yet.

Graveyard: is heavily planned on, and will most likely be located around the crypt gate, there s plenty of green area for it.

Mill: is a nice idea (Kach had it earlier too), maybe it would fit in the area between guard house and command post area, where i already located the simple house and broken walls.The guardhouse itself is too much a defensive structure to incorporate a building i think.
Can someone plz provide us with pictures of a small Mill and the structure of the surroundings, like the small dam, and waterpipes etc.?

Bell: Maybe locate it in an open tower or something. I was thinking of having 2 versions, a dark one and one that s a bit more shiny when the mechanism is constructed.
Anybody having a good sound for the bell of doom plz forward it to Kach, he s the soundmaster.

Skybox: its nighttime, so it will stay dark, but get stars and moon etc., maybe a few clouds passing by illuminated by the moon. You cant change skyboxlighting on the fly because it defines the lighting in your map.
Anyways, i ll try to get some special effects going on with it as well, it would be a good sign after the bellring if there are dark clouds etc over the monastery.

Most of these things come last though, because we got to optimize the gameplay first. Decoration comes after that.

[dersaidin]

Looks very nice!

A vew general suggestions:
- Make some of the grassy areas between buildings a little more trickjump friendly. If you put a fairly large rock every now an again as a platform, players wont fall far enough to crunch and stop their trickjumping. I'm sure theres ways of doing it as it is, but adding 2, maybe 3 rocks to the entire map would just make it nice, fast and smooth for attackers.
- I think adding a inside ladder down to ground level from the exit of the second tunnels would make them a better option.


I think it'd be great if you made a StopWatch version for competition play. If so, heres some suggestions:

- Make the map a bit faster by removing a couple of the dynomightable doors, ie. crypt wall and side gate. Or perhaps make them satchelable
- Remove a couple of unneeded rooms
- Perhaps move the flag in the first phase down a level so its easier for attackers