What could be improved on The River II?

[McNite]

Ok guys... its April 4th... so this is serious.
Me and some guys are thinking of working over The River II.

First step for this is: collect all ideas on what could possibly improved for increased fun and better gameplay on this map.
With all ideas discussed we will decide on whether we ll start mapping at all and which of the ideas we ll actually build in.

So plz bring on your suggestions, ideas and everything you can think of... the more ideas the better.
EVERYTHING will be considered and discussed.

[McNite]

Some first things i remember from talking to some competitive gamers:

1.) more exits from the river (its only 3 right now: river stairs, bridge, and at the rope bridge)

2.) MGs behind the sandbags: as constructibles so they r not available right from the start

3.) Mines all over the place possible.

4.) River Stairs: a constructable/ destroyable gate to slow down ppl who run right for the documents.

5.) No ammo-crates (lol i can already see some players objecting to this idea).

Keep it going... i ll post more when i remember it.

[kach]

Okay McNite and I have been chatting a bit about this and I will post my first run of ideas:

1. Mines - I would like to see mines enabled in more places then currently available (on the ground areas would be my choice).

2. Fog - The original map had fog, and as a sniper I had to work around it. I really think we need some fog and a darker sky in this new version as well.

3. Backway/Water tunnel/Grate - I would like to see a ladder at the allied tunnel entrance wall that would lead to a way around the the back. This could allow for an underwater/ground tunnel that exits under the broken part of the road. I would also like to see this exit closed off by a grate that can be blown and rebuilt.

4. Allied Ammo - I would like an ammo and possible health cabinet in the allies tram spawn. The ammo one would make Ike very happy, and just to do that would be a nice thing I think (lol).

5. Command Map - I would like to see the command map be re-done to include more details, like the MG's for instance (nice to hit as a mortar).

6. No Crawling - I would like to see crawling under the truck at the exit eliminated as a way of winning the map. I know how this would be done so it should not be too hard to do. I myself am guilty of doing this to win but I think you should have to jump in.

7. Castle Roof Access - There is one spot on the Castle roof I would like to see access openned up for people that are willing to jump and climb there (especially snipers).

8. Allied Access to the Upper Tunnel - I would like to see the terrain adjusted so that Allies can get to the upper tunnel near the truck. Further to that I would like to see that tunnel not closed off when the tram panel is fixed (see point #3).

9. Eliminate Axis Upper Ammo - I think this should be removed as it gives too much help to medics (China), Panzers (Karma), and snipers (Ike). I think those classes are great up there but they should have to come down for ammo.

10. Improve Tram/Elevator Switches - I am not sure how or if this could be done but I would like to see them improved because they can be hard to work sometimes.

11. MG's On the Tram - Actually this was just for fun but I thought an MG on three sides of the tram would make life interesting.

I will have more in the future I am sure but these are enough for now. I did not do a word count but I am sure Duke still ownes me (sorry Ike I will get him next time).

Kach-->

[ike]

jeez KACHY

kach you are not far away from duke with yer pages of words , i bet you read some good stories for yer girls to get them to go to sleep!

their is a couple of good points, but ill have to read it again as i have forgotten

i can remember AMMO being mentioned for the allies at the tram station - this would be a fukin miracle if that was to happen

and getting access to the roof on the otherside of the depot, that would be dam good especially for me and you with the scope!

and yer rambo mg machine guns mounted in all the windows on the cable car , well .... hehe

that would be like hollywood

mind having said that, i think another cable car running alongside the other, could be fun taking pot shots while they pass, or jumping across Knife fights at scary heights etc .....

well .... we will have to wait and see

get onto it mcnitey you have two days
;D
and no more april fools jokes

[kach]

Hey Guys,

Quite honestly I want to say that making River III is quite a possibility at this point. And that is no April fools fun any longer.

I am certainly interested in working on things with our fearless leader, and would welcome anyone else that wants to help, or provide some good improvement ideas.

So please let us all brainstorm everything we can and see if doing River III is a good idea.

Regards,

Kach-->

[2ndBadKarma]

said:

UBC[ Kach--> link=board=mapriver&thread=1112647255&start=2#0 date=1113086474]

1. Mines - I would like to see mines enabled in more places then currently available (on the ground areas would be my choice).

2. Fog - The original map had fog, and as a sniper I had to work around it. I really think we need some fog and a darker sky in this new version as well.

3. Backway/Water tunnel/Grate - I would like to see a ladder at the allied tunnel entrance wall that would lead to a way around the the back. This could allow for an underwater/ground tunnel that exits under the broken part of the road. I would also like to see this exit closed off by a grate that can be blown and rebuilt.

4. Allied Ammo - I would like an ammo and possible health cabinet in the allies tram spawn. The ammo one would make Ike very happy, and just to do that would be a nice thing I think (lol).

5. Command Map - I would like to see the command map be re-done to include more details, like the MG's for instance (nice to hit as a mortar).

6. No Crawling - I would like to see crawling under the truck at the exit eliminated as a way of winning the map. I know how this would be done so it should not be too hard to do. I myself am guilty of doing this to win but I think you should have to jump in.

7. Castle Roof Access - There is one spot on the Castle roof I would like to see access openned up for people that are willing to jump and climb there (especially snipers).

8. Allied Access to the Upper Tunnel - I would like to see the terrain adjusted so that Allies can get to the upper tunnel near the truck. Further to that I would like to see that tunnel not closed off when the tram panel is fixed (see point #3).

9. Eliminate Axis Upper Ammo - I think this should be removed as it gives too much help to medics (China), Panzers (Karma), and snipers (Ike). I think those classes are great up there but they should have to come down for ammo.

10. Improve Tram/Elevator Switches - I am not sure how or if this could be done but I would like to see them improved because they can be hard to work sometimes.

11. MG's On the Tram - Actually this was just for fun but I thought an MG on three sides of the tram would make life interesting.


Kach-->

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[freak]

having played the original river as well as reviewed river II, I would like to offer some input.

The first thing you have to ask is "Is this for competition or for pub"

Im a competition player and think that all maps should be built around forcing a team to work together. Having ammo and health available promotes less team work.

I think a team should have to take time to put together solid strats in order to defend or attack.


I would recommend removing all the health and ammo and force a team to use the FO class more.

Also I do like the idea of more minable areas.

thinking about the objectives with the wall (dyno) and the bridge (dyno). those are good.

As for the tram area, I think you could add alot to this area as far as objective and importance. You should have at least two seperate entrances to the tram control area, this forces a defensive team to split to defend. Also I think that the controls being built should secure the forward spawn, but the defending team should be able to destroy them and push the allies back.. Think of some of the more popular competition maps, Delivery, ET_Ice... this adds into the equation of sending a runner to get back the spawn..

As for the mg's.. I think two many of these will make the map spammy... setup on the mg and cover one entrance..

Make it more difficult to defend, remove the mg's. If the the defense wants heavy weapons, force them to use the soldier class to do it.. not med pack on an mg.. hehe (im guilty of that one)

All in all I like this map, always have, stick with the one side being easily accessible on the roof, allow the other to be boostable like the original.

I think one of the problems for competition right now is the size of the map.. most maps have 1 original spawn for attacking team, and 1 forward spawn.. this one has two forward spawns.. giving more objectives. Maybe simplifying it would be better than extending.

You could add alot of passages, but most will rarely be used.

Just my opinion... take it for what its worth

Freak
WWGN
www.worldwidegaming.org

[McNite]

Some more ideas that Freak talked about while we had a chat:

Freak sagt:
well one thing you might try to do to make it more difficult for allies to just grab is have a rebuildable barrier to get to the docs, but have it blowable by satchel.

Freak sagt:
i bet if you made a seperate version of it.. ie TE.. and cut that part off and went with the original format.. it would make it to leagues
McNite sagt:
the short version?
Freak sagt:
yea

Freak sagt:
well it seems the big hangup is the tram controls area
McNite sagt:
cuz ppl dont get it that there s the hidden cave entrance i bet
Freak sagt:
could be...

Freak sagt:
maybe instead of both paths leading to the tram controls, you could make some sort of tunnel that would be large enough to run a truck through.. that leads to the river area and then maybe a halway with some stairs that leads to the tram controls from the tunnel. then keep one other path into the controls from allied spawn
McNite sagt:
hmmmm i need a sketch of this lol
Freak sagt:
the thing im trying to think of is more or less forcing the defense to defend and not just camp
McNite sagt:
defense = offensive defense?
Freak sagt:
yes
Freak sagt:
give them an incentive as well,, allow them to blow the controls removing the allied spawn there...
McNite sagt:
yea but that would result in the possibility to throw allies back completely... think of Caen, i think the re-capturable flag (after tank has been repaired) is a mistake... it should be Oasis-like... wall blown = forward spawn safe
Freak sagt:
yes and no... alot of teams like that they can risk sending 1-2 guys on defense to cap back the flag.. this forces both teams to be more careful.. look at et-ice...
Freak sagt:
maybe have it so that if the bridge controls and front wall are blow open.. allies are gauranteed the tram spawn
Freak sagt:
with the alternative access route through the mountain using the "NEW" tunnel, allies could blow both without ever going to the tram
McNite sagt:
yes but ice is a flag only... this is a constructible... setting it up again takes quite some time
Freak sagt:
or you could have the cp there instead of tram controls.. have the tram already working

THX for the input freak

[McNite]

Here come 3 suggestions from China... sorry dude i forgot about them

[2ndBadKarma]

I think that tunnel thing would change the map.. why use the bridge when u can run nicely covered from any bullets in the tunnel!?

And the roof access. Imho it should be left like its now, because easy accessing to the roof gives axis side too big advance -> its impossible to get the objective when panzer there and its so close to the axis spawn. You can access to roof already if there is somebody givin lift -its just difficult for reason(please correct me if im wrong).

[ChinaGirl]

Hi Karma
I must say I agree with you on the access to the roof.
However, with the tunnel, yes it does provide lots of protection from the axis, that is why I want a constructable/destroyable gate at the tunnel entrance by the castle. Also, there will be a capturable spawn point close to the gate. Both side will have to work to use, or prevent the tunnel from being use. ...imo.....

[bush]

hi,
i think the two bridges should be constructed by engy's.
and mines would be fun as well..

and another healthcloset???

and when the bridge is down,it must be repaired,so it go's up.....

that missing road should be repaired ,and dynamited,by engy's

anyway, those are my ideas.
greetings from rainingholland...

its realy pissing from above..

[McNite]

Karma u r right about the "difficult on purpose"... its built that way to enforce teamplay and NOT having single rambo meds camping up there

(actually u can get up there alone though with a trickjump though... i might remove that trickjump, not sure yet)

[McNite]

Here are the suggestions Marknazz emailed me (he s a comp gamer from the US and also working on the concept of a map called reconnaissance_te):

Hello,

I walked around your map yesterday. Overall i think the layout is very good (especially the complex).

If you are planning on releasing this as a pub map, i think it is fine as is. However, if you would like to see this map given a chance a the next competition map, there are a few changes i feel will need to be made. Please understand that i am not trying to stomp on your hard work. I'm just trying to be critical as the competative community would be, and i just feel these changes would be needed in order to increase competative gameplay.

- the bridges leading to the front gate are kind of narrow. An attacker wouldn't be able to effectively strafe and shoot to return fire at the axis making shots from the complex walls. Maybe widen these a little.

- the small cave/mine tunnel which leads from the forward axis spawn to the allies starting point. I don't feel that this would be nessecary, so removing this part of the map would help defend the possible complaint that "this map is too big for competition" (which i don't feel that it is).

- removing the tram, and the tram support stand within the complex. I feel that the tram would not get any use during a match, and the tram stand adds a little unneeded clutter to the courtyard area.

- the destructable walls/barriers just ahead of the original allied spawn. For a pub style map, these walls being destroyed,then in turn, inflicting damage on the player who destroyed the wall would be totally acceptable (and funny). But i feel that it wouldn't be widely accepted by the competative community.

Mark

Just my replies to your suggestions, because you r looking at The River II and there already have been a lot of changes:

Footbridges: are almost never used for attack, only for escape, and ppl on the complex walls should be shot with crossfire from the outside; also the trees around the front wall give decent cover against shooting down from the wall at the docs room

The small mine tunnel has been removed already.

Tram platform in the castle yard: try the jump from the command post to the platform its a valuable way, also nice spot to set up Z-axis crossfire.

I agree with the problem of hurting walls. If u go for speed though u use 1/2 grenades on them, and nobody is going to stand close to the walls when u drop a nade there.

[McNite]

just a 2 sidenotes:

The breakable walls in the cave leading to the engine room do only give a damage of 20 now (=1 bodyhit with a pistol/smg).

There are 2 more ways out of the River now, one of them under the bridge and one at the east rope bridge (u can get out at west rope bridge anyways).

[Navy Chief]

i got some suggetions for the map though

1. the tram could be damaged by gernades like a tank would but the tram could be fixed on ethier side!

2. i love the idea about the ammo on the allies side!

3. buildable mg on the axis side for more of an advatage

4. small windows in the allies tram area for snipers who are stuck in the same place after getting pegged off a couple of times

ill think of more ideas later!

[McNite]

Just a short update:

The map is about to get released i think... we r waiting for the allied voice objectives to be delivered, Axis are done already.

Last things to do:
- I ll widen the ropebridges a little bit.
- Should we have the MGs as constructibles for Allies so they r no available right from the start? And Axis can satchel and dynamite them?

Apart from these ideas... this is the abolutely last call for suggestions.

[kach]

Personally I think the whole map should be broken down and restarted from scratch .

Kach