Warbell discussion

[McNite]

I ll collect all the information and interesting discussion contributions that were made about warbell in here.


Adacore s impressions:
The big black pit in the caves is... weird. Personally I'd just remove it, allow the allies to drop down there, since it's jumpable anyway.

I've never been too sure about 'push objective to location' maps, they're very hard to balance, I find, although can make for very intense stages.

The chapel layout is very complex, but as with all maps you learn it if you play it a few times, and it makes sense. There's enough room for fighting in most stages, and I hope the crypt is used a lot because fighting there is neat

The first phase seems pretty nice overall, although the river may get tiresome, I guess, if people keep trying to pop out of it... Not sure about all the rooms with barred gates either. Something that struck me as a bit odd was the lack of allied teamdoor access from the lower level there (towards the CP). I guess it's only a problem if you forget about it in game though.

Most of the objectives are ok though, there are two ones I have problems with. First as I mentioned above, the book run, but that just needs some proper testing I guess (from a clanwar perspective), and might be fine - you could think about moving it to the CP area if it's not, or even somewhere in the fort (perhaps the crypts).

The other stage I don't like is the bellrope pulling (as I said on server). I just don't see much value in the stage - it's probably easy enough, with the number of access routes available, to hit the bell rope, so it adds no real value. It's similar to the door switch on sp_delivery - easy enough to switch it, that map is only hard because you have to switch it and secure the objective at the same time (and I am NOT recommending that for this map).

Mostly it seems fine, although with a 20 second axis spawn and axis spawning so close to the objectives (last phase) it's going to be really hectic. But then once the bell controls are built I can't see the game lasting all that much longer - it's like the truck defense on sd2, 4 objectives where you just have to touch it and you're in, right?


Adacore's testing on the travel distances:
For public interest, here are some timing comparisons (strafejumping) for Supplydepot2 and Warbell:

first spawn to flag gate via road
warbell: 13s
sd2: 11s

first spawn to flag gate via tunnel
warbell: 16s
sd2: 13s

flag to command post
warbell: 12s
sd2: 11s

flag to fort via road
warbell: 12s
sd2: 11s

flag to fort via tunnels (crypt gate/main gate, giving warbell an 'advantage', as crypt gate is actually inside)
warbell: 14s
sd2: 14s

CP to fort
warbell: 6s
sd2: 7s

fort gate to controls (fastest route)
warbell: 12s
sd2: 12s

fort gate to controls (second fastest route)
warbell: 13s (19s round the back)
sd2: 15s

CP to nearest side wall/gate
warbell: 12s
sd2: 9s

flag to nearest side wall/gate
warbell: 14s (see flag to fort via tunnels)
sd2: 17s

EDIT: Also note that, having played sd2 a lot, I know the fastest trickjumps better than on warbell. In warbell I took a few tries to find the fastest way, and it's entirely possible that there are quicker routes which could shave a second or two off the time.


McNite's addition to the travel distances:
One thing I d like to add is that comparing the "controls" needs more differentiation since on warbell you have different "controls": the constructible on top of the roofs, the bellrope, and the sacrifices.

fort gate to controls (belltower - constructible): 12s / 14s through crypt (more cover here)

fort gate to controls (bellrope where to toll bell): 11s / 15s through crypt - not that close to allied spawn

fort gate to final obj (sacrifices): 6s / 13s through crypt
You could "compare" this with escorting the truck, but its completely different. It would be interesting to see what tactics for defending the sacrifice chamber teams come up with.


list of objectives comparing to supplydepot2:
The amount of objectives on Warbell is even less compared to sd2:
SD2 - Warbell:
1) get flag/ blow up gate - same
2) blow up 2nd wall - same
3) get truck to its position - get book onto altar (is more diff than pushing a truck of course)
4) get cp - same
5) blow up 2 walls, 1 gate - 3 gates one of which is already inside the compount... u actually don't need any gate to win, just makes it a lot easier
6) fence at crane - no such thing in warbell, free access to constructible
7) repair controls (1 bar) - repair bellmechanism (1.25 bars)
8) activate controls - toll the bell (on other level so Defenders get a chance to defend this)
9) drive truck home - sacrifices (these are considerably faster imo as u could see in the match yesterday)


Ideas for changes by chosen:
- Remove the wall in the tunnel when from flag (axis) to side gate to have faster attackers as in the first part of the map
- Remove not needed rooms like the church room, make it easier as a simple room with not much space if u want backshoot there, but
- Remove the stage where u have to ring the bell. When the stuff upside is build, let it ring and activate the first laser downstairs (after the book was secured)
- Maybe add some more shields with english description to find a way faster


More ideas by Adacore:
There are a couple of points which I think will make the map unplayable in competition without changes, however. Firstly the defending team spawntime has to be 30 (easily done with configs), secondly I am not at all sure the book run will be possible against a good opposition (more difficult - would require changing the map).
My initial thought for moving the book is to put it in the crypt (on that altar near the allied spawn). It might be possible to just totally lock down that area though, so it'd need testing.
Imo if the attackers have too big an advantage with 15/30, then change them to 20/30 rather than 15/20. Favours controlled, tactical defense over hectic spam/selfkill-fests. But yeah - easily changed with the etpro configs


More stuff from chosen (translated from German):
The last stages of the need to be sped up, and the route through the caves [to the graveyard] needs to be faster.
Enlarge the entrance room to the sacrifice chamber on both levels, maybe build in another set of stairs there to give more space, make it easier for attackers, and better viewablility of the infights

[dersaidin]

I agree with the following:

- Remove not needed rooms like the church room, make it easier as a simple room with not much space if u want backshoot there, but
- Remove the stage where u have to ring the bell. When the stuff upside is build, let it ring and activate the first laser downstairs (after the book was secured)
- Maybe add some more shields with english description to find a way faster (up to 5 sacrifice points?)


-Firstly the defending team spawntime has to be 30.
-Imo if the attackers have too big an advantage with 15/30, then change them to 20/30 rather than 15/20.

-The last stages of the need to be sped up, and the route through the caves [to the graveyard] needs to be faster.
-Enlarge the entrance room to the sacrifice chamber on both levels, maybe build in another set of stairs there to give more space, make it easier for attackers, and better viewablility of the infights

And my own:
If possible (perhaps do this as part of the last suggestion), reduce the number of rooms in the abbey.

Another way to speed up the last part may be to make the bell indestructable once its built. This would guaruntee that the attackers will only have to build it once.

[blue]

Why speed up the last part?.. its fast enough if you know how to play the map. After book delivery, bell construktion and bell ring, the map can be over in like 2 min's, if there are good players and they know their way around.

I think with the above suggestions, the map would be WAY to easy and could be over to fast.. and a map dosent ALWAYS had to be easy, not even WHEN you know it, thats the part where ppl. are comming back for more

-
Blue

[McNite]

sick's point
But at the last part, when you get out of cp(as axis) it is only distance shooting, because there are mainly 3-4 allies on the roof, which makes it hard to strafe down to the gates. When you chose the way through the tunnel system, you got the same problem or there are landmines at the exit. It would be better, in my opinion, when you couldnt shoot from the roof to the cp(and the way down to the main gate), but i dont know how to prevent this.

Blue: they r discussing it for competition gaming. Warbell is prefect for public gaming already. Question is whether its as perfect for comp gaming. Some of the points by chosen/adacore are ok, but for my money ppl need to test it more first.

[ChinaGirl]

Oh boy

I could see where all this could leads to.

Put down that paint brush Kach, and McNite, get that cat off your laps.
Get ready to do "Warbell...TE" Tournement Edition. ;D

;D ;D ;D

China